I’ve been having a pen pal exchange with my moderate Christian author friend in Canada. Some of his comments caused me to wince. While he is an educated fellow, his ability to see things outside of “religious think” -- in a broader perspective with any sense of rationality -- is tenuous at best. Let me explain.
We’ve been discussing the Catholic Church’s doctrine against condoms. I suggested that he should take a stand against that policy which has been complicit in the deaths of millions in third world countries, especially Africa. It went like this [edited for clarity and brevity]:
An excerpt from his reply: “FOR ME TO EXPECT PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN ABSTINENCE TO GO PASSING OUT CONDOMS IS LIKE ME EXPECTING YOU TO PASS OUT BROCHURES ON "THE FOUR SPIRITUAL LAWS."
My response: “Maybe that’s the difference between Christians and secularists. If handing out The Four Spiritual Laws was [scientifically] proven to prevent suffering and death for millions of men women and children due to AIDS I'd do it 7 says a week 8 hrs a day. If I knew such a thing could have that affect on humanity, I would be an amoral and insensitive asshole NOT to do that, and morally deficient by not working to get others to do the same.
To remain silent, to throw up ones hands, to not to speak out against an irrational prohibition based on the non-scriptural interpretation of ancient superstitious doctrine is tantamount to tacit approval of the Catholic Church’s death dealing policy.”
His response: “ I'M NOT EVEN A CATHOLIC. I'VE BEEN USING CONDOMS UNTIL I STARTED SHOOTING BLANKS SO THIS IS A LITTLE NUTTY TO ME. HOW MANY CONDOMS ARE YOU HANDING OUT?”
My retort: “This isn't about you or me. It's about millions of 3rd world peoples to whom the word of the Catholic Church is sacrosanct and are dying because of it. The Catholic Church's position is as nutty and as unholy as it can be. That you seem so cavalier about it is disappointing.”
And finally this gem: “CONDOMS ARE [ONLY] 90% EFFECTIVE ... THERE’S A 10% CHANCE YOU’LL DIE, GO FOR IT. OFFERING CONDOMS MAY HELP SOME … BUT … WHAT I'VE SEEN IS TRUE CHANGE HAPPENS WHEN ONE GENUINELY FOLLOWS THE FOOTSTEPS OF JESUS. IN OTHER WORDS, THE SCREWING AROUND STOPS, DADS COME HOME, THE WOMEN ARE CARED FOR ETC.”
“If you agree that condoms are 90% effective your [lack of condemnation] of this Catholic doctrine is disconcerting. If we can't have 100% we shouldn't work toward 90%? Isn't 90% better than 0%? [Instead] we should deny them a proven preventative and rely solely on Christian teachings / abstinence / Jesus to restrain the natural human sex drive? That’s as obscene a lack of reason and rejection of reality as I could imagine. The thousands of sexually promiscuous priests and [molesting] ministers are testament to the power of the human sex drive, irrespective of their knowledge of and acceptance of Jesus
The USA has THE the highest teen pregnancy rate in the industrialized world. Yet we have the most religious population in the industrialized world. Sarah Palin's born again daughter's pregnancy was a result of her mother's abstinence only non-think indoctrination and denial of the natural sex urge. What now? They should have had "more faith?" We also have the highest divorce rate in the world. Jesus- think hasn’t had much impact there either.
Until this irrational doctrine of abstinence only “just come to Jesus” is thrown into the trash heap of mindless, simplistic and failed teachings, Christianity in general, and Catholicism in particular, are complicit in the spread of this disease among those least prepared to fight it.”
I don’t expect to get my author pal to come around to logic untainted by Christian delusion. It seems even some Christians to whom condom use is a legitimate birth control and disease preventative devise won’t condemn the Catholic Church’s mindless prohibition. Even they opt for Jesus as the preferred prophylactic… at least for third world impoverished peoples. Evidently, what works for the white North American Christian isn’t effective for black African’s. I don’t like what that implies. Too much Jesus on your mind is a horrible thing.
We’ve been discussing the Catholic Church’s doctrine against condoms. I suggested that he should take a stand against that policy which has been complicit in the deaths of millions in third world countries, especially Africa. It went like this [edited for clarity and brevity]:
An excerpt from his reply: “FOR ME TO EXPECT PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN ABSTINENCE TO GO PASSING OUT CONDOMS IS LIKE ME EXPECTING YOU TO PASS OUT BROCHURES ON "THE FOUR SPIRITUAL LAWS."
My response: “Maybe that’s the difference between Christians and secularists. If handing out The Four Spiritual Laws was [scientifically] proven to prevent suffering and death for millions of men women and children due to AIDS I'd do it 7 says a week 8 hrs a day. If I knew such a thing could have that affect on humanity, I would be an amoral and insensitive asshole NOT to do that, and morally deficient by not working to get others to do the same.
To remain silent, to throw up ones hands, to not to speak out against an irrational prohibition based on the non-scriptural interpretation of ancient superstitious doctrine is tantamount to tacit approval of the Catholic Church’s death dealing policy.”
His response: “ I'M NOT EVEN A CATHOLIC. I'VE BEEN USING CONDOMS UNTIL I STARTED SHOOTING BLANKS SO THIS IS A LITTLE NUTTY TO ME. HOW MANY CONDOMS ARE YOU HANDING OUT?”
My retort: “This isn't about you or me. It's about millions of 3rd world peoples to whom the word of the Catholic Church is sacrosanct and are dying because of it. The Catholic Church's position is as nutty and as unholy as it can be. That you seem so cavalier about it is disappointing.”
And finally this gem: “CONDOMS ARE [ONLY] 90% EFFECTIVE ... THERE’S A 10% CHANCE YOU’LL DIE, GO FOR IT. OFFERING CONDOMS MAY HELP SOME … BUT … WHAT I'VE SEEN IS TRUE CHANGE HAPPENS WHEN ONE GENUINELY FOLLOWS THE FOOTSTEPS OF JESUS. IN OTHER WORDS, THE SCREWING AROUND STOPS, DADS COME HOME, THE WOMEN ARE CARED FOR ETC.”
“If you agree that condoms are 90% effective your [lack of condemnation] of this Catholic doctrine is disconcerting. If we can't have 100% we shouldn't work toward 90%? Isn't 90% better than 0%? [Instead] we should deny them a proven preventative and rely solely on Christian teachings / abstinence / Jesus to restrain the natural human sex drive? That’s as obscene a lack of reason and rejection of reality as I could imagine. The thousands of sexually promiscuous priests and [molesting] ministers are testament to the power of the human sex drive, irrespective of their knowledge of and acceptance of Jesus
The USA has THE the highest teen pregnancy rate in the industrialized world. Yet we have the most religious population in the industrialized world. Sarah Palin's born again daughter's pregnancy was a result of her mother's abstinence only non-think indoctrination and denial of the natural sex urge. What now? They should have had "more faith?" We also have the highest divorce rate in the world. Jesus- think hasn’t had much impact there either.
Until this irrational doctrine of abstinence only “just come to Jesus” is thrown into the trash heap of mindless, simplistic and failed teachings, Christianity in general, and Catholicism in particular, are complicit in the spread of this disease among those least prepared to fight it.”
I don’t expect to get my author pal to come around to logic untainted by Christian delusion. It seems even some Christians to whom condom use is a legitimate birth control and disease preventative devise won’t condemn the Catholic Church’s mindless prohibition. Even they opt for Jesus as the preferred prophylactic… at least for third world impoverished peoples. Evidently, what works for the white North American Christian isn’t effective for black African’s. I don’t like what that implies. Too much Jesus on your mind is a horrible thing.
Why couldn't DM's mom have insisted on a condom being used? His rants are getting longer and longer.
ReplyDeleteHump, about halfway through your correspondence I started to get the gist of the implied racism. The ONLY thing which saves the almighty Church from truly getting the hairy eyeball from the rest of the world on the issue is that they're spreading the stupidity everywhere- not just countries with a dominant black people.
Hell, with the AIDS issue it's not even common sense to propose pulling out or practicing the rhythm method. Because the Church abhors those two birth control methods, too. It's the fact that the Vatican hates science. They have something against petroleum based products which are stretched to look like a phallus. What is this- religion based penis envy?
I think it all boils down to sin. Their definition of sin. "If they don't do it in the first place they wouldn't die." They don't have to get on horseback and don chain-mail in order to have their new Crusade. All they have to do is open their mouths, preach, and restrict access to condoms.
Look at the hospitals and the blood banks. When the majority of your common populace is infected where do you go for a clean blood supply? And who can afford it?
As most of you who frequent this blog, you know that Drom and I are good friends -- and you know that I am a Christian. The 'no condoms' to save lives never made sense to me.
ReplyDeleteMy husband and I spent some time in South Africa (which Drom helped support financially). We did hospice visits and were on the childrens' team. The majority of the kids were orphaned or lost at least one parent to AIDS. Many of the children were born HIV positive and will eventually die from AIDS. Every home we visited either had an AIDS patient or we were paying visits to those who had lost a family member to AIDS. It's devastating.
Now ... do I believe that abstinence is the best way to avoid AIDS? Yes, absolutely. But if a young girl (or young man) were to approach me, tell me that they were tempted to have sex, I would talk to them and tell them the dangers of it. I would encourage them to wait and not engage in sex. Yes, I would even pray for them.
And then I would hand them a condom (or a dozen).
Might my talk work? Maybe. Heck, maybe my prayers might work, too. But I know that if they engage in unsafe sex, none of the above matter.
It's pure neglect to not provide something that can save up to 90% of those lives (given the 90% number used). It would be blood on my hands if I failed to act. Frankly, if I'm going somewhere to help and serve I need to do that using every possible resource available.
LOL. I just noticed that DM linked the to the lightning strike of Big Butter Jesus (up here in my neck of the woods). So DM ... what do you think about them spending almost 3/4 of a million dollars to rebuild it? Do you know how many that could feed and clothe here in the Cincinnati area? I'm very curious about what point you were trying to make with that link.
ReplyDeleteSorry ... subject change and hijack over.
Angel,
ReplyDeleteThanks Angel.
You picked up on the racial aspect I see. I have the uneasy feeling that for him as a young man condoms were just fine, because he had already accepted Jesus. But for black Africans, condoms just aren't enough. Jesus must come first.
While he didn't say that it may be implied, if only unconsciously. I do not think he is consceiously racist.
BTW, he doesnt represent the catholic church...he's sort of a free lance proselytizing Christian.
Joyce: We can agree abstinence is best. But as your actions would demonstarte, given the scenario you described, it can't be viewed as the end game to prevent AIDS. We can't ignore the reality of the human sex drive and watch people die for it.
I think your approach is as reasonable and intelligent as it gets. (uh..not the prayers part... the counseling and then condom part ;)
Thanks Joyce for your input, and for always reminding me there are genuine compassionate and THINKING Christians among us.
xxx
Yes, DM, I am an enemy of god, because belief in your god nurtures the unthinking "thought" displayed in your post and the blog to which you responded. Understanding may come to you if a concept is presented as a parable, so here goes:
ReplyDelete"Two men stood in the desert. One man looked up and said, 'The sky is blue.' The other man stared at the sand and said, 'No, it's green. I have a book that tells me it's green, so I know I'm right. You can't be right because you don't agree with my book. All those who don't agree with my book must die.' The first man drew his sword and beheaded the second man. 'You deny the facts before you and threaten to destroy those who don't follow suit,' he said. 'You are a plague upon the world and must be cleansed from it. And the sky is still blue.' "
Some others reading this may find my stance to be "radical," or "uncaring," but read that first comment again. You can't use reason against someone like that, which means being "reasonable" is a waste of time. You can ignore him & allow the cancer to metastasize, or you can kill the tumor and save the human. I don't see any other options.
I won't use any names in this story, so I don't feel guilty for passing it along:
ReplyDeleteA young married Catholic woman was having trouble getting pregnant. Her Catholic doc wanted to do a sperm count on the husband to rule that cause out before any other step was taken.
The young woman was told by the Catholic doc to go home and use a condom the next time the woman and her husband had sex, collect the sperm in a recepticle and bring it to the doc the next day to be examined for sperm count under a microscope.
But before he ended his instructions--I swear this woman did not make this up--the Catholic doctor told her she or her husband must stick a pin through the condom so that they would not be commiting a sin by using the condom!
So here you have complete insanity: A young man and woman trying desperately to get preganant and the Church inserts itself into the process by its idiotic prohibition against condoms, even when they're being used to promote procreation.
Every sperm IS sacred in the RC!
Shaw, your last sentence made me think of that wacky show-tune... ....... crap! I can't think of it. But the gist of it was "every sperm is sacred."
ReplyDeleteMonty Python??? Anyone?
.... two seconds before posting this comment: BUahwhahahah!!! I just clicked on the link. I was right.
I thought it might be worthwhile to site an article from AIDS (a journal published by the International AIDS Society) that examined the effectiveness of condoms in high-risk populations. This was a prospective study of 17,264 sexually active individuals in Uganda. HIV incidence and STD prevalence was determined for consistent versus irregular condom users. Only 4.4% of individuals infected with HIV reported consistent condom use. Not surprisingly, condom use was more prevalent in better educated individuals.
ReplyDeleteAccording to a 2007 report by the World Health Organization, correct and consistent use of latex condoms reduces the risk of HIV transmission by 80-95%. To avoid confusion, it is important to note that this does NOT mean that 5-20% of condom users will become infected with HIV. Among 10,000 uninfected women whose partners have HIV, if each couple has vaginal sex just once, on average:
If all 10,000 did not use condoms, about 10 women would likely become infected with HIV.
If all 10,000 used condoms correctly, 1-2 women would likely become infected with HIV.
Hope that makes sense.
I'm really not for abstinence being the first line of defence against HIV/AIDS and unwanted pregnancies. My daughter grew up in Holland, where the teenage pregnancy rate is one of the lowest in the world. Why so low? Because of the practical attitude the Dutch have towards teen sex i.e. if you're going to engage in teen sex, then do so without guilt and with full protection.
ReplyDeleteThe doctrine of 'abstinence only' is perverted and flawed and the moral majority from nearly all modern-day religions have contributed mightily towards death, disease. misery, guilt, unplanned pregnancies and child-rape (for example in Africa, where the belief that sleeping with a virgin will cure AIDS).
The catholic church, in particular, is guilty of sending tens of thousands to their condom-less doom, while giving protection to their own vile molesters.
We would *never* hurt babbling impotent fools like yourselves, Hump & Co.
ReplyDeleteWe just wanted to give you a little FRIGHT and show you what is REALLY GOING ON!
*****YOU ARE NOT THE ENEMY*****
THE WEALTHY AND POWERFUL ARE THE *REAL ENEMIES*, those who have *REAL MONEY* and *REAL POWER*, those who are manipulating and exploiting others for their own selfish financial and political gain…...
The Roman Catholic Church and its idiosyncracies does not represent all Christians any more than Christopher "Don't call me Chris" Hitchens represents all atheists.
ReplyDeleteI'm a Christian and I can assure you that failing to distribute condoms in an AIDS-infected world is no different than those idiots who handle dealdy snakes, drink poison, refuse to take their sick children to the doctor, refuse to allow starving children to eat certain spiritually "unclean" foods, and parents who mutilate the genitals of their infant children -- all supposedly "in the name of God" without one shred of New Testament bible support...
DAJulian...
ReplyDeleteWe know Catholics do not represent all Christians. We are educated people.
But many Christians especially evangelicals, distain any form of contraception / protection...prefering to go 100% to the abstinence route. My Canadian author friend seems to be one (well, for others not for him it seems.
I concur, Humpster. Fundies just seem to have the loudest vocal chords. Ergo, they are picked on. Moderate Christians are tolerable. Mostly.
ReplyDeleteExcept for my husband. I draw the line there. Sometimes I want to throw the Book at him.
I swear, sometimes he disagrees with me even when he's agreeing with me. How absurd.
Angel,
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't neccessarily blame your husband's beliefs on his contradictatory ways. I think that's true in any marriage regardless of belief.
I think that's just how husbands are built. LOL. ;)
Helga, your point is well taken. My point in bringing up and supporting abstinence is that it is the only 100% way to stop sexually transmitted AIDS. I realize it's not always realistic, however, which is why I support condom use in the fight against AIDS (particularly in the poorer and more uneducated parts of the world).
For as much as I disdain religion and in particular the catholic church there are some that do a lot of good, though they are probably killing way more than they are helping through their no condoms campaign.
ReplyDeleteHump and Joyce's points jumped out at me (and I always enjoy reading the other comments, except for DM's, LOL!). Another fine post, Hump...and I'll add my ramblings. LOL!
ReplyDeleteMy hubby and I don't have any kids (by choice), but if we did, I would encourage abstinence first (there's so much more to do when you're a kid without complicating it with sex), but give them all the info they needed, aa early as they became curious (age appropriate), so that they could make informed decisions.
My sis and I were both given info on our bodies/menstrual cycles/sex by our parents (mainly my mom while my dad offered up whatever made HIM comfortable) when we were about 11...and my sis still became pregnant at 16. She didn't want to have an abortion, so she did the best she could to raise my niece with our family supporting her. I wasn't sexually active til I was 18 (sorry if this is TMI, LOL!), but I always played it "safe" with birth control/condoms/very few partners, so I've never been pregnant or had an STD. Never had to deal with the issue of abortion, adoption or teen pregnancy firsthand.
Bottom line is, we're all sexual beings regardless of how religions try to stifle that fact. When NORMAL people are aroused, I doubt they're thinking "What would Jesus do?"...They're listening to their hormones and primal urges. Most teens are careless and think they are invincible (recall your own youth if you're over 30). They think they'll live forever, so they certainly don't think they can get STDs/HIV/AIDS/unwanted pregnancy.
Africa is unique...In many African countries RAPE is used as a weapon...and I doubt any of the rapists are using condoms, whether they are Christians or Muslims (I'd bet a million dollars they aren't atheists). So that has to be considered as well when we talk about the spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa.
Rachelle,
ReplyDeleteThanks for that in put.
Yes, rape as a weapon of war is certainly a horrifc fact of reality in parts of Africa. But where consentual sex is concerned, the catholci church's prohibition is tantamount to manslaughter.
I agree wholeheartedly, Hump. :)
ReplyDelete