Sunday, July 11, 2010

The Comfort of God’s Orderly Creation; the Horror of a Random Universe


IN THE BEGINING Man’s understanding of science, his comprehension of the universe and the forces of the physical world were miniscule. Just as we ask ourselves “why and how” so did the ancients ponder the mysteries of what they observed.

Today we answer those questions with the benefit of thousands of years of accumulated knowledge, augmented by 300 years of previously unimaginable scientific discovery. The ancients answered them the best they could within the context of their culture and personal experience. All knowledge and experience was founded on one precept – it was focused on Man for Man or by men. Everything in their existence was species centric.

Since every primitive technology they had was a creation of Man, surely everything they did not / could not create had to be formed by a more powerful someone. And if the social construct included rule by a king, then surely there was a higher unseen king / god, or gods who demanded fealty and obedience by all in exchange for his gifts. It was only "logical."

Every earthquake was a sign, an omen, or an indication of a god’s displeasure with Man. Every flood, every lightning strike, every eclipse, every successful hunt or bountiful crop, every victorious battle was due to a god’s hand a sign of it’s presence and relationship to Man..

Everything in the sky was meant to serve Man, for why else would it exist? The moon differentiated time periods, segmenting the seasons in a predictable pattern …all for Man’s benefit. The stars and the moon gave light to better see at night… all for Man’s benefit. The Sun was a life force, possibly a god unto itself... all for Man’s benefit. These things could only be designed for, and presented to Man by a beneficent Being whose primary purpose was to interact with his creations -- rewarding them when he/she/it was happy and proud of them; and meting out punishment when they broke the societal taboos which offended it.

When in doubt as to a gods’ actions the Shaman was consulted. He knew the gods’ reasoning. He’d interpret it and give guidance. Invariably penance in the form of a burnt offering of grain, or animal, or human flesh would set things right. It was orderly. All the mysteries of the observable universe were understood; nothing had to be unknown: if Man didn’t do it, the god or gods did. It made perfect sense. What could be more comforting?

And what could be more horrifying than the obverse possibility… to think that all is not guided by super Being(s) just for Man’s benefit or a super Being’s personal edification? That there was no guiding force with whom they could reason, to whom they could implore, in whom they could trust to control their lives and world. How would they have coped with a universe that expands beyond their view, even beyond their imagination, all without any impact on Man and his world? How could the chaos and randomness of asteroid, meteor and comet impacts on billions of worlds billions of light years away be reconciled with the orderliness of a universe devised just for Man? Why would billions of suns shine their light and life sustaining heat on worlds that Man does not inhabit? How could the Earth, Sun, water, atmosphere, all plant and animal life not have been specially supplied to Man by the hand of that Being, instead be the result of a massive explosion of chaos, random combination of forces and elements, and natural selection?

To the Creationist religionists of today, just as it was with the ancients, the orderly guiding hand of a Super God King who made all, sees all, controls all and must be obeyed is still the great comfort. The chaos, randomness, and uncontrolled actions by mindless physical forces of the natural universe is the antithesis of orderliness and comfort… a horror that must be shunned and denied.
And while the discoveries of thousands of years of accumulated knowledge, and hundreds of years of the scientific age have whittled away what their Bronze Age predecessors once attributed to their Super God King, the remnants of that belief continues to control 21st century minds. That’s the real horror.

31 comments:

DM said...

TAM 8:

let them know if the MDC continues more people will die...

the WORLD TRADE CENTER PROPHECY - THE DANCE OF
DEATH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Hez25fFrg

FLUSH ATHEISM!

Actually it is a ROYAL FLUSH!!!

Let me show you how ATHEISTS were partially responsible for 911

These ATHEISTS NEED TO BE ON THE TERRORIST WATCH LIST!

You don’t even have SCIENCE on your side…

You’re a perfect example of when PHILOSOPHY becomes an ENEMY OF LIFE...

http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2010/06/playing-mystery-card.html

not quite samantha with her *supernatural spit*, eh?

_________________
you were at the WRONG PLACE at the WRONG TIME...
_____________________
this isn't one of your little WORD GAMES...

blasphemy is a DEATH SENTENCE

you people actually BELIEVE the BS you preach!

GOD 1 - atheists 0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQcNiD0Z3MU


Atheists,
you are ENEMIES OF GOD AND ARE GOING TO BE ANNIHILATED...

Repent and turn to God or be destroyed...

YOU HAVE NO CHOICE...

my interpretation of the STATUE FIRE... it symbolizes the SPIRITUAL DEATH of atheism...

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/topofthetimes/national/la-naw-0616-jesus-statue-lightning-20100616,0,4295974.story

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/6/16/1276680110544/The-King-of-Kings-statue--005.jpg

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2010-06/54332292.jpg


http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/butterjesus-1.jpg

PRINCESS DI IS WEARING A NEW DRESS!

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/speechesandarticles/a_speech_by_hrh_the_prince_of_wales_titled_islam_and_the_env_252516346.html
______________________________
http://skepticblog.org/2010/04/06/would-i-ever-pray-for-a-miracle/

Shermer, I WANT TO SEE YOU BEG FOR A MIRACLE...
___________________
we do like your music Lady Gaga, but...

The B**BQUAKE - 911

Let me show you the FATE OF TRAITORS...

http://www.loiterink.com/photos/products/182_3424_500x500.jpg

they are incapable of telling the difference between SCIENTIFIC *FACT* AND
RELIGIOUS AND PHILOSOPHICAL *TRUTH*... FATAL ERROR!

they also preach a *VALUE FREE SCIENCE* called *POSITIVISM* that ignores the
inequalities of wealth and power in capitalist civilization...

for a sample taste of PZ Myers' GARBAGE...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/06/sunday_sacrilege_imagine_no_he.php

HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!!!

http://hawaiiwebgroup.com/maui-design/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/website-hijacking.jpg

HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!!!

how can these HEADLESS IDIOTS BET AGAINST GOD!!!
________________________________________
what happens when you LOSE Pascal's Wager...

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/pascals-wager.htm
____________
you FIGHT PAPER MONSTERS...

the blood and bodies of the atheist movement...

you mofos killed MICKEY MOUSE!!!!

this has more TRUTH then what Dawkins, Randi, Harris, Myers, and Shermer
combined have said in their entire lives...

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=5R2wE8Sduhs&playnext_from=TL&videos=hht1U_19anc&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_fresh%2Bdiv-1r-3-HM

they tried to BULLDOZE the entire METAPHYSICAL DIMENSION...
they LOST THE WAR......

you have FORFEIT YOUR SOUL, shermer... you have become an object in the material world, as you WISHED...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUB4j0n2UDU

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/7/11792994_ffaaee87fa.jpg

we're gonna smash that TV...

They had become ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE AND OF GOD...

you pushed too much and *CROSSED THE LINE*

degenerates (PZ) or children (HEMANT) - ATHEISTS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRRg2tWGDSY

do you have anything to say, you STUPID LITTLE F*CKER?


THE BOOBQUAKE - 911!
****************************************************
http://dissidentphilosophy.lifediscussion.net/philosophy-f1/the-boobquake-911-t1310.htm

NewEnglandBob said...

The small minds of theists can not intake all the knowledge that has accumulated, so they refuse to even try. They bask in their infancy still, hoping their daddy above will take care of them if they just do their wishful thinking and thanking.

Enrico S said...

"Why would billions of suns shine their light and life sustaining heat on worlds that Man does not inhabit?"
It's uncomfortable for the theist to ask questions like this. It does not fit into "the mold". Just feel gushy inside and talk about how wonderful god is because he found you a parking space today in front of the post office. Isn't god wonderful? As I heard a beautiful old man say today; "Because of god, I'm 88 years old and survived two fights with cancers." Sadly, while god chose to save him, thousands of innocent children suffered and DIED from their cancer. Why?

Ok, done rambling on incoherently.

Great post Hump!

Hirondel said...

Sensible observations above (in the post).

BTW, who is this rambling and rabid miserable moron called DM (stands for Demented Moron?) who keeps making these disconnected, nonsensical and hateful comments? Some Bible-Belt jerk-off?

BathTub said...

It's dennis markuze, an internet nut job.

I don't just mean the stand 'he's crazy', this guy is flat out nuts.

Rastifan said...

Makes me think of this party I was on. I was slightly drunk and was looking this girl in the eyes.
I asked.!

“Do you know what a brown dwarf is?”
“No” she replied.
“It is” I continued “a failed star. A star in a failed solar system that are too low in mass to sustain stable hydrogen fusion like our own sun. It can not sustain any life and is doomed to float around with no purpose what so ever. Hundreds have been identified which suggest a large number since they are hard to spot due to their low luminosity”.

I then asked. “So why would your heavenly father who makes everything so perfect make such a utterly useless object is my question for you?”

You all know what this discussion was all about, and the answer will not surprise you either.

“Who am I to question what he does to his own universe”

At which point I just nodded confirmedly and went back to talk to more reasonable people.
Who is she to question, to be curious, to desire knowledge, to understand? At least primitive men tried with very limited resources. They got it wrong of course, but they did try. Today the knowledge is there for anyone to see. Now we know why. And the world is full of people like this girl who is terrified of hearing anything beyond the comforts of her own self made bubble.

It is so relevant to and let me quote your last entry Hump.

And while the discoveries of thousands of years of accumulated knowledge, and hundreds of years of the scientific age have whittled away what their Bronze Age predecessors once attributed to their Super God King, the remnants of that belief continues to control 21st century minds. That’s the real horror.

In deed.

longhorn believer said...

Christians believe everything they are to,d without question. So they never stop to consider the possibility that instead of the world and all it's life forms being made for us, perhaps we evolved to take advantage of what was available to us. Maybe we were made for the earth and not the other way around. I know.......too logical

DSJulian said...

The truth is that there are many questions (especially "why" questions) that Science cannot answer. Today's in-your-face atheism is just the evolved version of what used to be called the religion of naturalism: the (completely unprovable) belief that everything is or will be eventually explained by the empirical. So the mythology of the unknowable Mother Nature is substituted for the mythology of the equally unknowable Father God. All it really means is that there is a wide variety of ways of looking at things. What I find amusing is that those who want to rely on reason rather than intuition can't give you one reason for our being here except the infantile reason of a three-year-old: "Because, that's why." At the same time they claim to be completely open-minded, they are adamant that that "Just because" can't possibly be some form of cosmic intelligence. In fact, there is no evidence that the concept of "randomness" really exists at all.

Dromedary Hump said...

DSJulian,

The "why" questions, as in "why are we here?" are theistic or philosophical questions. Science does't answer them, because science doesnt value those kind of questions; they have no scientific value.

On the other hand science can answer "Why is it likely that life exists on distant planets among the billions of planets in the universe?" The answer isn't philosophical, nor theistic... it's based on probability extrapolated from a known: specifically that life exists on Earth thus conditions for life likely exist somewhere else.

But this need to propose a "purposful" why, is the question posed by those to whom the science, reality, and probability of life is reduced to magic and spiritualism. I wrote a chapter about this "purposeful" why fixation by religionists in my book.

It's like asking "why is there AIDS?". Scientists will explain the viral organism's origin, its mutations and it's observable qualities, how it reproduces and how it is spread, etc. But religionists are more concerned with the intellectually defunct and primitive superstitious purposful why which they answer in the predictable "Because of men's evil ways; because it's god's punishment; because of unnatural behavior that is sinful." It's part of the unfortunate result of the mind virus of religion.

I'm disappointed that you confuse Naturalism with atheism. Atheists ("new" or old) have no "world view," per se; only no belief in god or gods. Nor are we typically absolutists, though some may be.

Additionally, to call Naturalism a religion (in the classic sense) while it lacks rituals and worship is another indicator of this need to label any non-belief in the supernatural as "religion" unto itself. It's tired and hackneyed and if not postulated out of ignorance, then out theists' need to denigrate non-belief into just an alternate religion.

Rastifan said...

I find it fascinating. The need religious people feel to label atheist's so we can fit in to their theistic world view.

"You can't believe in nothing" is a phrase I've heard more than once.

Nice response to DSJulian Hump. Although I do not see how his entry is relevant to the article.

Engineer of Knowledge said...

Hello Hump,
The ancient Greeks had their Titians explaining natural occurrences and their Gods based on superstitions, but even 600 BC ancient Greeks had a better understanding of our universe than the Christian religious would even recognize as late as the early 1960’s. Even as far back as 600 BC they had the concept of the atom, knew that the planets revolved around the sun, knew the diameter of the earth, how far the moon was from the earth, etc.

I remember well a classmate making the statement after we had just watched it on TV in school in 1962 that John Glen circled the earth. His fundamentalist father then slapping him for his blasphemy because the Bible said the world was flat.

It is mind boggling to me that in the face of science facts, the remnants of those beliefs continues to control 21st century minds of many.

Today the advances of DNA research and Genome mapping proving evolution, the fundamentalist are build creation museums showing blond haired children playing with dinosaurs….and they let these people vote in democratic elections…..or even let them have a computer.

So Hump I have to ask, why is it that reviewing, confirming, and accepting science fact is so esoteric?

Dromedary Hump said...

Let me thank everyone for their insightful input to this article. Your comments are as thought provoking, perhaps more so, than my article. Kudos.

Engineer asks: "... why is it that reviewing, confirming, and accepting science fact is so esoteric?"

Science doesn't have to be, nor is it meant to be esoteric. But it certainly is viewed that way by relgionists because they are too lazy to emerse themselves in science and/or too fearful of scientific reality dissolving their preestanblish and non-scientific world view.

Thus, religionists have contempt for science, and scientists who they feel are elitist and out to destroy their fantasy. Of course it isn't an objective of science or scientists to do that...it just happens to be a by product of learning and discovery.

But nevermind that, science will always be esoteric to those who want to remain on the fringes of scientific understanding.

DSJulian said...

Hump --
I really wish you guys would recognize the distinction between the relative handful of fundies and the rest of us Way, Truth, and Life Christians. Not all Christians are adversaries of science just as not all scientists are adversaries of revealed religion.

The fact is: many scientists do attempt to answer the "why" questions and a lot of times their answers aren't any more plausible than "Because, that's why." There is a reason why PhD means Doctor of Philosophy.

I look to science for answers to empirical questions and my religion for answers to questions that can't be answered any other way. And I'm glad to see you characterized those kinds of questions as "having no scientific value". But that is not the same thing as having no value at all.

Rastifan said...

@DSJulian

A friend once said that science is cold, unfeeling and brutal. What she meant was, science is honest. Many Christians can't cope with the fact that it strips away the magic.

Sure you have religious people who attempt to reconcile both sides in an attempt to keep both the magic and some form of logical credibility about their person.

This can't be done while at the same time recognizing proven scientific facts that contradicts the unproven claims in religious dogma.
So they bend the science to make it fit their religious viewpoint.

Sorry, but then it is no longer science. It has then become a playground for unproven claims like religion.

This is the downright truth of it. Evidence, the eternal enemy of religion.

Dromedary Hump said...

Rasti..nicely put.

DS Julian..

a PHD does not a scientist make.
Please give me an example of a scientist, in the "hard disciplines," preferably one who is a member of the National Academy of Sciences, who seeks scientific answers to the purposeful "why does man exist", or "why are we here", or "what is the meaning of life."?

I do not lu mp all Xians togther. I am well aware that there are degrees of religious delusion. But what most of them have incommon is that if science hasn't answered all the mysterkies of the universe yet, all the questions, then they take that as a default to "god did it."

Reading your posts above I sense you do some of that yourself. Thus, while you may indeed respect and embrace science , even though it proves scriptural fallacy, you can't quite make the full jumpto reason and reality. As Rasti said, you're trying to accomodate both, while betraying both.

DSJulian said...

DH says: I do not lump all Xians togther. I am well aware that there are degrees of religious delusion. But what most of them have incommon is that if science hasn't answered all the mysterkies of the universe yet, all the questions, then they take that as a default to "god did it."

DSJ says: Of course you lump all Christians together. All Christians are deluded, just in different degrees. Most of us do not "have in common" that the "default" answer to yet unrevealed mysteries of the universe is "God did it." What we default to is that "God did it" for everything in the universe including those things currently revealed to science. Just as the naturalists (who currently like to pretend they are atheists) believe there is a "natural" (translate that as "any answer other than "God did it") explanation for everything, we believe that after all the futile attempts to answer those important "why" questions with every other possibility, eventually scientists will have to admit the real answer. In the meantime they have to substitute terms like "spontaneous remissions" for "miracles" and "deluded" for a different sets "reason and reality" than you perceive - yet.

And you can start with Dr. Fracis S. Collins, recently appointed Director of the NIH who was in charge of the human g-nome project, whose whole purpose was to discover "Why are we here?" and "Where are we going from here?" Collins is just another in a long list of dedicated scientists who find no conflict between their science and their theology.

Dromedary Hump said...

Ah...so all the things that science understands, all the forces of nature..everything is god's doing.

And lightning strikes are god's doing, and plate movements causing earthquakes are his doing, and volcanoes, and hurricanes. Because if your sky daddy gets credit for all things in the universe, he gets credit for those things as well.
Were they errors of creation? If so, why hasn't it fixed them? If it created them on purpose, then it is a hiddeous murderous thing who gave no thought to his creations' well being... thus to worship it to revere it is an abomination.

You can't have it both ways. If you believe this god thing to be a all powerful, thinking, good thing then you cannot accept tactonic plate movement, and climactic variances to be simply natural scientific realities that formed from an undesigned natral occurace.

Or perhaps you're a diest, and this god thing ceated and bailed out..let the natural forces do as they may/

Yes, all religious belief is delusion. and Yes, it's a matter of degree. But no.. I don't lump all theists into the same mold as say Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, Ted Haggard. If I did, I'd dispise you as much as I dispise them. Which I do not at all.
Thus, your saying i lump all theists together is erroneous. i.e. An anti-semite lumps all jews together... they hate them all equally irespective of their "degree" of "jewishness."

Dromedary Hump said...

Oh..sorry.. yes.. Francis S. Collins jesus lover par excellence.

There is a 93% non-belief among the NAoS members. That means of the 2,100 members Collins is one of the 147 who are believers.

as for spontaneous remission being gan act of god. I'm sure your answer as to why all cancer patients don't experience it is going toi be: "God works in strange and , etc. etc." or "Who are we to understand god's plan?"

Here's an act of god. Have every believer cancer patient reject any medical care and just depend on god's "good graces" for their existence. My guess is they lack that faith as do you. It's antad disingenuous to speak of remission as an idication of a god, when you haven;t the courage to entrust your god with your cancer treatment.

Oh..and spare me the "but god gave science the ability to fight cancer." I know you aren't THAT far gone ;)

Rastifan said...

-Who are we to understand gods plan.
-I am sure he has a plan with this.
-We can not hope to understand his ways.

The favorite lines among the eternal ignorant.

The priest managed to try something similar with me when my mother was rotting away from cancer. It caused quite the stir in the hospital corridors.

This is how they rationalize tragedy when they discovered that they all loving god just fucked them over instead of somebody else.

Just had to input here. Pisses me of when those lines are used.

Dromedary Hump said...

Rasti.. sorry about you mom. I can imagine it makes it that much worse to hear religioists lay their irrational rationale on you at a time like that.

I wonder what Julian would call people who believe that human sacrifce was Their god's will...delusional?

Would Julian call those who sacrifice animals to their god or gods delusional? Those who handle snakes and drink poison for Jesus delusional? Worship a snake god, an elephant god, the Hindu Trinity..delusional?

Maybe he will just say they are misgiuided...it's much more genteel.

But rational people free from the God Virus, don't draw a distinction between what superstitious practice is delusional or irrational..they ALL are, equally.



the degree of delusion of believers is only distinctive WITHIN each nonsensical belief.

Rastifan said...

Hump said!

The degree of delusion of believers is only distinctive WITHIN each nonsensical belief.

This comes to mind. A very good illustration:)

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m394/Poseidon_Simons/crazyvsreligion.png

Dromedary Hump said...

Rasti... nice one ;)

To me they are equaly delusional. Butto Xtians, the guy on the left is obviously nuts. Funny thing about that.

DSJulian said...

DH says: Ah...so all the things...

DJ says: That's right. Now you're beginning to get the picture. If you want to believe (without any proof whatsoever) that you are here for no apparent reason you're welcome to it. You're supposed to be the worshipper of "reason" here, but you want to deny that there is a reason for your existence here beyond the comprehension of a child's "Just because, that's why." So you summarily dismiss the really important questions like "Why am I here?" and "What am I supposed to do while I'm here?" as scientifically unimportant, and by implication, worthless.

DH: And lightning strikes are...
DJ: I don't have a "sky daddy" and you know it. So who do you give credit to for creating all this? Do you really think it is "reasonable" or "rational" to believe all this is here "Just because, that's why."? Lightning is just one manifestation of the electromagnetic force that holds the universe together. The important question here is why would you assume that I would know why God contructed the universe this way. Maybe things are so volatile because He wants us all to remember that this life is only a temporary existence. You'll have to ask Him when you see Him.

DH: Were they errors of creation?...
DJ: Once again, why do you assume I would know the answer to that? The naturalist view is always that our limited human perception is the only possible perception; that our definitions are always based on our own selfish perspective. What you are really saying is that if you created the universe, you would have done a better job of it -- according to your own idea of perfection, of course. Don't you realize that there will always be humans who will then tell you they could have done an even better job than you? You are the one who actually has the power to create a perfectly balanced universe, yet you are criticized by someone who can't even take a single breath without the air you have so conviently provided for him. Once again you are making a huge assumption: that the hazards of this life are the result of a God who "gave no thought" to the well-being of his creations.

DH: You can't have it both ways...
DJ: Of course you can. All you have to do is realize that what you call "natural scientific realities" are simply part of God's Grand Design. You observe the empirical with science; you observe the spiritual with religion. It always seems to come as a surprise to naturalists that a man can be both a scientist and a believer - and any combination of the two.

DH: Or perhaps you're a diest,... DJ: "Natural forces" do not "do as they may." They do what they were designed to do.

DH: Yes, all religious belief is delusion...
DJ: Thanks for the acknowledgement. My perception is that most "atheists" today are actually agnostics and they are at least receptive to the idea that evidence for a God could exist; and that their chief objection is with the dogmatic, fundamentalist, literalist, and often violent nature of some specific religions, including Christianity, the religion. Most of them fail to recognize that we Way. Truth, and Life Christians are also opposed to Christianity, the religion.

DH: Thus, your saying i lump all theists together is erroneous. i.e. An anti-semite lumps all jews together... they hate them all equally irespective of their "degree" of "jewishness."

DJ: Nice try at backpedaling but the fact is you clearly said "All religious belief is delusional." That invariably leads to the erroneous conclusion that moderate Christians support the genocideal violence and other unchristian acts of some fundamentalist cults -- which we do not...

DSJulian said...

Rastifan says: A friend once said that science is cold, unfeeling and brutal.

"Atheism prides itself on its strict devotion to Reason and Science and its iconoclastic toughness. But it pays a heavy price for such cybernetic cleanliness: concepts like love, beauty, joy, loneliness, kindness, etc., become airy epiphenomena floating about the "reality" of atoms in motion." — Robert Moore, author of The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark

Dromedary Hump said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dromedary Hump said...

jULIAN... YOUR RELIES ARE BECOMING TOO LONG AND TOTALLY DEVOID OF REASON OR LOGIC. You are making up stuff because of the challenges and the discomfort they are causing you. I''llplay along this last time. Pay atention.


DJ Said: "I don't have a "sky daddy" and you know it. So who do you give credit to for creating all this? Do you really think it is "reasonable" or "rational" to believe all this is here "Just because, that's why."? Lightning is just one manifestation of the electromagnetic force that holds the universe together. The important question here is why would you assume that I would know why God contructed the universe this way. Maybe things are so volatile because He wants us all to remember that this life is only a temporary existence. You'll have to ask Him when you see Him. "

This is really bizarre.
1) Sure you have a "sky daddy: you call it God, with a capital G... "and you know it." That the phrase "Sky Daddy" offends you does't negae that's exactly what it is. It watches over you, yo pray to it, you worship it on bended knees... he's your sky daddy. See?
2. There is no "who" to the creation of the universe. Again, you need to stop thinking as a theist if you want to understand reality, modern scence evdence for the Big Bang Theory et al. Your "who" is child like Julian.

DJ Said: Once again, why do you assume I would know the answer to that? The naturalist view is always that our limited human perception is the only possible perception; that our definitions are always based on our own selfish perspective. What you are really saying is that if you created the universe, you would have done a better job of it -- according to your own idea of perfection, of course. Don't you realize that there will always be humans who will then tell you they could have done an even better job than you? You are the one who actually has the power to create a perfectly balanced universe, yet you are criticized by someone who can't even take a single breath without the air you have so conviently provided for him. Once again you are making a huge assumption: that the hazards of this life are the result of a God who "gave no thought" to the well-being of his creations.

HUMP Said: I ask you your perspectiveon why a perfect being creates a hiddeously imperfect eco system? I assume you have a perspective, even if its from apooigetics. The fact that this
logical questoion is beyond myour ability to offer a logical propostion for it ... and rambling on into oblivio with your typing indicates i may have touched a nerve. If you dont have an explanation for the "haddards" of the natural world your saky daddy created... then you are simplyavoiding the dilemma the question poses.

CONTINUED BELOW

Dromedary Hump said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dromedary Hump said...

CONTINUED FROM ABOVE

DJ Said: "Of course you can. All you have to do is realize that what you call "natural scientific realities" are simply part of God's Grand Design."

Hump replies: Prove it. Prove natural scientific realities are part of sky dadddy';s Grand Design. Try and prove with out saying: The Bible Told me So.


DJ: "Natural forces" do not "do as they may." They do what they were designed to do."

HUMP Said: So the natural forces were designed to kill Sky Daddy's creations. Because..thats what they do you know. Your sky dadddy must have known that would happen, yet he "created" them to do that anyway? Sheesh.. what a murderous uncaring turd your sky daddy is.

Yes, all religious belief is delusion...
DJ Said: " Thanks for the acknowledgement."

Hump Replies; You're welcome.
I am atheist, havinf no belief in god or gods. That I am open to scientifically testable evidence of the existence of a god/gods doesn't change that. But theists have a problem understanding what atheism, agnosticism, and proof really mean. so I'll leave it at that.


DJ Said: "Nice try at backpedaling but the fact is you clearly said "All religious belief is delusional." That invariably leads to the erroneous conclusion that moderate Christians support the genocideal violence and other unchristian acts of some fundamentalist cults -- which we do not...

Hump REPLIES: Wow Julian, thats just stupid. Back Peddle??? LOL.
YES all religious belief is delusion..self delusion, based on acceptence of a fairy tale for which no objective evidence exists. I stand by that.

Dromedary Hump said...

continued from above....

Hindus are deluded, Muslims, Wiccans, Christians.. on and on and on... delusion. Or perhapsonly YOUR releigion is not delusion? LOL. See, there's the rub. All religionists think THEIR religion is real and the others are delusion. Why is that so difficult for you to admit and comprehend?
Delusion does not = "suppport of genocidal violence or other unchristian acts." If you look up the word delusion it's very clear and as nothing to do withspecifically suppprting violence. This persecution complex of yours is really getting the better of you.

Julian , you have strayed from dealing with the actual issues and problems I presented and disotorted or mininsterpreted them mean what YOU'D PREFER them to mean instead of accepting them as clear and concise challenges.

Unless its a reading comprehension deficiency, my vast experience with the supernaturally infected tells me that this is theist fall back position when reason starts cutting too close to your unsuportable supernaturalism.

Dromedary Hump said...

JULIAN<
"... concepts like love, beauty, joy, loneliness, kindness, etc., become airy epiphenomena floating about the "reality" of atoms in motion."

Robert Moore is a douchebag. And your picking that inane statement, implying we need a sky daddy to have tose emotions, feel empathy, do good works, et al.. disqualifies you as a thinking peson. I gave you way too much credit.
That was just a tad more than I can tolerate.

Dromedary Hump said...

The fact is that love, empathy, kindness, are natural instincts, domonstrated by other species.

Charity, doing good works, are a combination of instinct and evolutionary developments in order to sustain human life.

Oh wait.. No.. sky daddy gave those emiotions actions, for a purpose, part of his Grand design, part of his mysterious Plan ...I forgot.
Fuck. :)