Tuesday, July 29, 2008

The Nonsense of Prophecy Fulfillment: Why Can’t Christians Get It?

Likely all of us have heard Christians declare that there are some 300 prophesies in the Tanakh / Hebrew Bible (what Christians call the Old Testament) that were fulfilled by Jesus ... as "documented" in the New Testament. This is a foundational element of their belief in the supernatural Jesus as God/Messiah.

I have always tried to explain to these credulous folks that the New Testament is simply a sequel to the OT. That is, if the OT "prophesies” were KNOWN, by the authors of the New testament, how hard would it be to write the mythical account of the life of one Jesus to match and thus fulfill those early prophesies? I mean, how difficult can that be to understand…at least mull it over!

But they dismiss it at face. It’s just too obvious, too simple, and too worldly to be comprehended. It's much easier for them to accept a mystical magical complex supernaturalism for which there is zero evidence, and no corroborating / repeatable examples, than to consider the simplest and most logical explanation. They cannot even understand the concept, it actually confuses them. Remarkably peculiar, and incredibly frustrating.

I just finished reading "Constantine's Sword", by James Carroll; ex Catholic priest, biblical scholar, Catholic Church historian, Christ follower. An excellent read, it was on the NY Times Best Seller List. I highly recommend it.

He explains the New Testament prophesy fulfillment bugaboo this way: it’s not "history prophesized", but simply multiple examples of "prophesy Historicized". In other words, exactly what I have been explaining to the faithful sheep all along. The NT writers took OT prophesy, known by every Jew, and applied it to Jesus 50-70 years after his death, as though it was a historical fact, to imbue him with the mythic Jewish messiah status. In so doing, the ancient Hebrew Bible would be “proof “, “witness”, to Jesus’ messiahship … a great selling point if the intent was to recruit Jews to your new cult. And indeed, Christ worship was originally an exclusively Jewish focused cult.
He goes on to explain that Jesus' contemporary followers would never have ever conceived of this messiah status; indeed, it would have come as a complete shock to Jesus himself who would have likely considered it blasphemous.

"Prophesy Historicized" is the phrase I've been trying to describe to the sheeple for years. It took a liberal, thinking Catholic scholar to help me name it. Go figure.


Anonymous said...

Wow....well I'm interested to know how you think the Earth and you and I were created. Are you an Evolutionist? Oh and also....what proof do you have that the NT is merely part 2 of the OT? You make all these claims against the Bible, but have you actually studied up on the Bible yourself? You say that YOUR facts come from a liberal Catholic scholar. But have you read for yourself? The Bible is historically accurate in every way. I just happened to come across your posting while I was in the middle of an Isaiah research paper. I've never really seen how strongly one can be against Christianity. I presume that you will delete this right away, but thanks for helping me to see the other kinds of views out there so I can know how to defend my faith and what I believe.

Dromedary Hump said...


wow... from 2008, eh? timely.

if you want to know the generally accepted and scientifically supportable explanation for the beginning of the universe, and for the origin of species, including humans... I can recommend some readings. Otherwise, just check wiki for:
"Big Bang" and "Evolutionary Theory." They will explain it all to you. The explanation ray comfort (aka Banana boy) gives you is a tad moronic.

If you were more frequent a visitor here you'd know my back ground and thus my familiarity with the Bible (KJV, NIV), the Tanakh, comparative religions, ancient pagan religons, biblical criticism, et al.

If you read both the old and new testament, and preferably the hebrew version of the OT, you'd understand that the prophesies "fulfilled" by your NT man-god were simply the writers' familiarity with said prophesies being applied to their preferred cult figure. This isn't rocket science. You could have done it yourself if you had a prequel to base it on.

This is rather widely espoused in biblical scholar circles. Not that I'd expect you to know this. Basically scholars say that the NT is not "history prophesized," but "prophesy historicized." Not that I'd expect you to understand that either
Anyway, the rest of your comments are so vapid that they are very possibly proffered by an atheist who is doing a parody of a fundamentalist christian.

I am happy to help you see there are other views out there, since obviosly you aren't being taught about them in a meaningful way.

If you spent a few bucks on secular books instead of religious gibberish, you'd discover a whole world of understanding that eludes you.


Anonymous said...

Ok, the theory of Evolution is True, the BIG BANG THEory Has Holes in It, the NT has Holes in it, The OT has Holes in it The HEBREW OT is completely flaw-full.. I will explain.

Now, Considering the facts that the OT was written many years before the Birth of the man We call Jesus Christ, and this man was born not to fulfill the prophecies, but he was the man that was being prophecised about.. doesnt mean that poeple made the stories up. Just because in your mind a coincidence is basically like saying it never happened, doesnt mean it didnt happen. I know thats too hard for your small mind to understand but, thats truth.

The funny thing about your theory is that you stand on the Hebrew side of faith when trying to deny Christanity, when the Hebrews were the reasons for the death of Jesus, not only because they denied him, but they figured he was full of; excuse my language, shit! Now they re-wrote their whole book around the fact that Jesus was not their saviour, because they killed him in the most vain way possible! ON THE CROSS!!

Whether you or anyone wants to believe this to be true, is completely up to them. It really all depends on how your mind thinks. NOW! Evolution!

Humans have been Evolving since the beginning of our history slowly making survival better and easier as times progressed. Our minds got stronger, and our ways increased in brilliance. But Somewhere ALOGN the Line we Stopped improving our surviavl needs and started concentrating on the WARs between each other. (This was around the time of MOSES)

Whether or not we evolved from Monkeys is not the issue either, because we GREW from single celled Organisms, after the ICE AGE that Cleaned the Dinosaur BONES from the planet; so there was no evidence of their existence! You can choose to believe this theory if you wish or not, thats completely up to you.

I hope i did not upset anyones egos on their tohughts of Religion.. but someone HAS to CLEAR things up!! This has GONE on for WAY TOO LONG! And no there is no need to think about Death, Because as Soon as we all come together as THE HUMAN RACE that we ARE, we will be able to Get BACK on TRACK and progress into a Great amount of Strength and INtegrity.. instead of Worrying if The END will Be Today or TOMORROW!

With Love,





Dromedary Hump said...

Once again you have proved that theists have serious difficulty understanding prophesy historicized vs history prophesized.

No one said anything about "coincidence." Forget "coincidence." If I write a book that says such and such personage will do this and that, and have those particular qualites..etc; and that book is revered by a segment of people as being a "truth"; and 1500+ years later devotees of a cult leader opted to claim their follower was all of the above/ had all the atributes... that is not History Prophesized... it's Prophesy Historicized.

In other words... "part Two" of the original scripture was made to FIT part One.
Look..this isnt rocket science.

I stopped reading your comment once I realized your confusion, and what can best be described as theist diarrhea of the mind.

comeback when you have a name and have ingested some mind Imodium

Paolo said...

Ok, you do have a point with that, but i think because you are looking for the problems you are finding them. Which is fact about almost anything, if you are a problem finder, then you are a problem solver. Please give me your detailed view of the CORRECT story that happened 2000 years ago.

Because i could talk all day about how the NT was written by the men who lived their lives with Jesus. And by Men who had heard about him, or seen his work.

Please tell me.

Dromedary Hump said...

I assume you are not a very curious or avid reader, except perhaps for xtian apologetic sites.

Here are two books that will help answer your questions:
"The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man" and "Deconstructing Jesus." They were both written by a biblical scholar named Robt. M. Price.

If you really want an answer, then seek out these books. If you don't want a genuine answer, endorsed by very many biblical scholars, and wish to dwell blindly in your fable...that's your choice. It seems to have been your modus operandi up until now.

Thanks for using your name.

Paolo said...


Thanks for your genuine answer.

But even scholars cannot unmask the great thing that is God, and His son. The way of the light is too powerful for most human minds to understand. Because to think at light speed you would have to be a God. If these Scholars really believe they have unmasked the truth in their findings, then they would have to be God's, but since they are not God's their artistic babble is what has convinced you of ways that are not exactly truth.

Considering the Ways of Life have been increasingly decreasing since the beginning of Wars, the Ways of speach and literature have been doing the exact same. If you think that i am going to take my time to read something that depicts the life of a Holy man, you would have to be crazy to suggest it. But i do thank you for taking your time in response to my questions, because i was serious.. but i was even more serious to hear your Words on te matter, considering I am Giving you MY words.

Take Care Hump, and watch out for that bump!


Dromedary Hump said...

One doesn't need to be a god to understand history, how myth develops throughout civilization, and how cults are formed around a central figure. One needen't even go back as far as the ancient Greek god's to understand how it happens. The emperor of Ethiopia, Haile Selassie, was deified by some people ...the Rastifarians... after his death in the 1970s.

That religion continues to this day, unbeknownst to Emperor Selassi. If he knew that he was believed to be the incarnation of God, and is expected to return, he'd no doubt laugh his ass off. If an actual historical man named Jesus existed, he'd no doubt do the same.

What convinced me that theism is not true isn't any "babble" by experts in biblical criticism. It was studying comparative religions, reading their scripture, and one more thing: chances are what convinced me most is the same thing that convinced you that all the other thousands of gods man has invented for 1000s of years are false. They make no damn sense.
You see, you are only one god away from being an atheist yourself.

Finally, your first two sentences of your last paragraph makes no sense.
But, the third sentence doesn't surprise me in the least. Theists fear rationality, science, scholorly analysis and questioning...it may influence them to think on their own which is the first step toward losing faith. I never expected you to actually pursue knowledge. You'll have none of this "thinking" stuff, I understand that.
Stay well.

Paolo said...

Hump, let me give it to you straight here.
For every Race there is a Leader, for every Leader there is a way of life. With meÉ Now those ways of life dont just come to be. They are hard worked on. I know that, you know that. So with that said, would agree with me that for each race, culture, and religion there has been a man that has come along to either completely switch their ways into the right way, or to move their course a tiny bit to correct their ways of thoughtÉ You see i do not fear anything that man can do intellectually, but what i do fear is that man cannot think intellectually when the time comes for him to do so. What if i told you that science has no buisness in trying to figure out God, and Jesus, and all of his sonsÉ What i told you that Science was and is here for the technological advancement of our civilization, and not to try to make themselves more than what they are. Scholars, are great men, but some are on the wrong path.. either because of their ways of life, which pushed themthat way.. or for the shear amusement of depicting a whole nations belief. You see I understand this to be a free country.. but i do not understand what this freedom is doing for civilized people with too much time on their hands.. like yourself and I. You see, we should not be in this conversation.. because there should be no reason why ANYONE would want to pull apart a 2000+ year old book. Other than the fact that after 2000 years another man of the Earth is to be born. So whether Jesus existed or not.. is compeletly arbitrary to the way myself and you think, and for you to continue to try and pull people away from their beliefs is completely disrepectful, and destructive in its manner.

Now think about this for a few, what if i was a different believer who had the same way of thought, but had a short fuse. Would you even be having an intellectually sound conversation with him, or would he have blown up on youÉ

What you have to understand is that life is what life is, for you. Life is what life is for someone else. Life is WHAT YOU WANT it to be. So, since you have the destructive way of thought, i cant even imagine what you would be doing with your life, and how you think of others when you walk by them or meet them. How can you live life with all that hate in your bloodÉ Just let things be, and stop trying to mock others and what they believe, enough is enough.

With Respect to all who read this,


Dromedary Hump said...

sorry... that genuine theist sheep gibberish is waay too long for me to bother with.

Feel free to hold whatever childlike beliefs you wish. Reject learning. Drop to your knees and pray to a mythical dead Jew. You're posting to a two year old artilce which speaks for itself in terms of its scholarly perspective from credible sources, both theist and secular.

I neither expect you to understand it nor embrace it. You've already declared your lack of scholarly curiosity... it would be like me dismissing the Bible without ever having read the KJV or NIV.
That you seem to be moved to religious fervor and babble by my article seems to indicate you're a tad obsessive, perhaps even hyper-religious, which is symptomatic of a psychological imbalance.

I do wish you the best. Take care now.