Yep, God had a busy week. He worked his strange and mysterious plan on some of his favorite Christian followers..
- First, we find out one of His beloved … a loyal God-fearing Sunday school teacher, a woman no less, Melissa Huckaby … was arrested for sexually molesting and killing an eight year old neighborhood child in California. She was doin’ the Lord’s work no doubt. I’m sure the faithful at her church will pray for her, albeit, I can’t imagine why.
- Then, in New Hampshire, on Easter Sunday, the 150 year old Christian Conference Center and “compound” caught fire and was destroyed. Four people hurt as fifty Christian buildings burned to the ground. "It was a tremendous blessing," said Russ Sample, a volunteer staff member at the conference center. "Had this happened eight weeks later [during the busier summer season], all these buildings could have been full."
(I don’t suppose NOT having the fire would have been a more "tremendous blessing.")
- Finally, we find out that Mel Gibson, the devout Christian, producer of the blood drenched movie The Passion of Christ, and anti-Semitic holocaust denier, is being sued for divorce by his wife of 28 years. Evidently Mel couldn't keep it in his pants. With no pre-nup, half of his almost $1 billion in assets are at risk. I guess Mrs. Gibson had her fill of Mel’s Christian goodness.
Ah yes, the Lord was busy tending his flock this holiday weekend. His will be done.
26 comments:
It looks like Mel is getting ready for his next role: Charles Manson.
You are a naughty boy! I am sure that god will kick your skinny ass very soon.
^^^I fucked that up, it is me, Balsam, not anonymous
And people say that ATHEISTS are child molesters. Ha!
I also heard that crazy nut was saying it was an 'accident'. Yeah, people accidentally rape, kill and stuff children into suitcases all the time...
Satan is alive and well and often goes to church. He loves to stir up controversy in a church making mountains out of molehills --using personality clashes, contests of wills, etc.
Every now and then a perverted person or criminal comes along --sometimes it's a con artist selling shares in goldmines to Christians only.
Church people who commit crimes of any kind --and especially those against kids-- are not Christians, but charlatans. If they REALLY believe in JEsus, they do not follow Him. Even the demons believe in Christ, says the Bible.
I wrote two articles about Easter week, too --at my blog.
Barb said:
"Church people who commit crimes of any kind --and especially those against kids-- are not Christians, but charlatans."
Barb, I suggest reading up on the "No true Scotsmen" fallacy. Here is a brief snippet:
Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing." —Antony Flew, Thinking about Thinking (1975)
Your assertion quoted above about "true" or "real" Christians never committing crimes falls into this category error.
- Fastthumbs
Pardon me for posting this here --but Mudrake typically deletes me at his blog where you asked me if I'd lose my faith if it were proven that Jesus were a homosexual. Here, again, is my answer.
Jesus could not be homosexual, Hump. And you could not prove that he was, so my faith will do just fine, thank you. He is God, Holy and sinless--and God's image is male and female designed for one flesh union with each other.
He is a son --a male.
People are not born homosexual; they become so, either by sin against them or sin by them --or a combination of both. They have a damaged sexual self-image.
Jesus was without sin --everyone said so --even Pilate who could find in him no wrong. The Jews considered homosexuality sinful --they would have accused him of it if Christ were known as homosexual. They could only accuse him of blasphemy for calling Himself God --or King of the Jews --or for violating the Sabbath by healing or feeding his disciples on the Sabbath. He was accused of no sexual sins in His day. Those who speculate thusly are doing revisionist history --and blasphemy.
Maybe Warren did lie by anyone's definition. I don't know --didn't hear it --haven't researched it --don't have time right now. And so what if he did? He's not the whole church of Christ. Shame on him, if he did. IF he lied, you rightly point a finger at him --unless you who judge do the same things. That would make you a hypocrite --unless you think lying is OK for you --but if OK for you, why not for Warren? To whose moral standards are you appealing?
Paul's interest is not in converting Gentiles --it's in spreading the Good News about Jesus. Jesus said our faith makes us whole --by faith we are saved not by works lest anyone should boast. So while Jesus said he didn't come to take away one jot or tittle of the law ( J and T refers to strokes of a pen) --he DID come to save us in spite of our sins --and He promised that those who believe in Him like children having faith in and love for someone, will be saved. So Paul is interested in theology, truth --more than saying whatever it takes to win converts. Of course, adult circumcision might slow down the conversion rate --but Paul's point is that it isn't necessary.
the law served its purpose --it's still written and Jesus didn't erase it --but He did put us under the Grace of His shed blood --we need not fear the Law --we have an advocate with the Father who will redeem us. We need not have the mark of Jews, the circumcision, because Jesus's death was the ritual we need for salvation --that makes all believers the chosen children of God.
I don't fully understand the difference between rabbinical law and the moral law of God --which we still believe in following today in the Ten commandments --though we do make graven images --but not as objects of worship.
God's standards of right and wrong are not changed --but there were rules/laws in Judaism that Jesus ameliorated --as when he healed and picked corn on the Sabbath, to the criticism of Jewish religious leaders. He teaches about it, saying the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Anonymous, your Scotsman is a Scotsman by virtue of his birth. NO matter what he does or believes, he is still a Scotsman. And no Scotsman can honestly claim that all Scotsmen are good people, much as he wants to.
A Christian is a Christian if he is truly born again and loves and follows God. If he commits heinous crime or has a bad character in general, his status as a Christian is much in doubt, because a REAL Christian tries to obey God and won't be given over to egregious sins --or chronic ones. A S.S. teacher or minister who molests is doing the acts of the Devil.
Christians do trip up and sin and real ones will feel remorse and repent for it.
Barb,
Unlike the word "Scotsman," there is no generally accepted definition of the word "Christian," so you can pretty much define it however you want. A very inclusive definition might be "Anyone who claims to follow the religion of Christianity." A very exclusive definition might be "Only those people who precisely practice the sect of Christianity that I agree with."
Obviously there is a lot of wiggle room between those two extremes. Since the Scotsman fallacy relies on ambiguity in the definition of the word Christian, you are doing a form of equivocation.
So how many Christians NEVER committed ANY sort of crime, Ever?
What sorts of crime makes a Christian into a "charlatan"?
As far as I know, there is only one unforgivable sin in Christianity, and it's blasphamy: according to Mark 3:29 in the Holy Bible, "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." Jesus will forgive you for just about anything, but he won't forgive you for denying the existence of the Holy Spirit. Ever.
So the pedifile priest can still be forgiven by Christ as long as he doesn't blasphamy... This bascally means that a Christian can do just about any crime or atrocity and still be a Christian and be a BAD person.
- Fastthumbs
One's belief is not subject to the third-person criticism. But nonetheless, the Bible can be interpreted as supporting the "True Scotsman" treatment. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)
Why is it more important to gain new converts than to keep the old ones? To dismiss someone as "not being a True Christian" instead of recognizing what is said in (Matthew 26:41) and (Corinthians 10:13). The Flesh is weak, despite the spirit, and it could have been you who committed any of those crimes, for you are no more immune to sin. Would you, in their place, want chastisement and to be refused by all but God in your pursuit for forgiveness?
..............
Well, on the bright side, the Peeps shall be getting stale soon, and they always taste better stale than fresh.
- ThatMr.RogersDude
(Practitioner of Surrogate Ideology)
Bals...nice of you to co me out of hibernation.
Fastthumbs... as always, a valued comment.
Sunny... well, remeber now... according to Barb, that woman can't be a "true" christian. She knows because she is in charge of determining who is and isn't a True christian.
BARB ... I' happy to have you post here. I won't delete you for expressing your opinion. What I will do is tell you that when you attribute people's behavior to "Satan", you immediately expose yourself as a vapid, mideval thinking, under-educated mind zombie.
People are responsible for their acts. no evil spirits or fallen angels need be envoked to explain bad behavior / criminal behavior. That you likely lack a higher education, or any exposure to psychology/biology, is no excuse for being thoroughly stunted in your thinking. We've come along way from "the Debbil made me do it."
So, as soon as someone who professes to believe in Jesus; who spends their life reading the bible and praying, ... who seeks to live by the best admonishments of Jesus, whoi accepts jesus as his lord and savior... as soon as he commits a crime he ceases to be Christian. As soon as he lies, he loses the only qalification that makes one a christian: The belief that jesus is his/her savior?
How very convenient for you. Thus, Xians can't do criminal acts, immoral acts, or lie... because as soon as they dothey cease to be True Christians. LOL.
Don't you see the absurdity of the paradox you as refronting? Can't you understand how patently stupid you sound? I doubt there is a theologian on the planet who will attempt to front that inane argument. But then, you are but a simple sheep to whom reality is simply an inconvenience.
Your lack of familiarity with how the christian cult went from being a specifically Jewish directed cult, to a religious sect encorporating non-jews is a testament to your self imposed ignorance of historical writings. The roman historian Celsus had alot to say about it.
But I don't expect a fundamentalist to want to actually read a book written at the dawn of Christian expansion. I'm quite sure that besides the bible, and fundie tracts and fundie websites, you read very little that could elucidate you to the real world / history. In fact, I'd be surprised if you even read this post this far.
Finally, I note you didnt attempt to refute the "lying as a christian sacrament". Then again, I'm sure that besides Luther, you never heard of those other christian theologians and early church fathers. Again, its not something you'd likely bother with. Too much knowledge in the head of a believer just causes them to think, thus confuses them. I understand.
Hump
Bareb...PS:
Acts do not determine one being christian / being saved. Belief in jesus as lord and savior does.
Jesus said, "...he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."
John 5:24
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16
"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9
That is the ONLY qualification for being a christian. Thus, your argument that criminal's can't be TRUE christians is defeated by your own doctrine.
Read your bible!!!
You see, thats why you christians say Hitler may well be in "heaven" while an innocent like Anne Frank burns in your imaginary hell.
What a sick and perveres doctrine you hold to.
Hump
BARB said: ".. but there were rules/laws in Judaism that Jesus ameliorated."
Oh? And which rules and laws did he do away with, besides harvesting on the sabbath? There were 600+ laws that he said must never be disobeyed... not an "iota not a dot" . He wasn't speaking of the Ten Commandments, as any theologist will tell you. He was demanding that Jewish law be observed forever.
"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
Now... where does Jesus say he "ameleiorated" Judaic law??
Or was it PAUL who "ameleiorated" it? You see, you don't follow Jesus' words at all. You're a PAULIST! yOU shall be called "the least" in heaven.
Repent! Read a book, for christ sake.
Hump
Hey Hump --if you were educated yourself, you'd know the definition of ameliorate. I didn't say Jesus did away with the Law.
Let's see if I can make you as mad as I make Mudrake --no matter what I write, he deletes it. Liberals typically have no tolerance for religious truth.
I won't delete anyone for their theology or lack thereof. Nor their views on social issues --but I will delete for bad language and pointless ad hominem attacks--though I have quite a bit of tolerance for that where I am concerned.
I certainly did read your post and comments, contrary to your assertion.
Why is it that someone who disagrees with you is "uneducated?"
What's YOUR education? I do have my bachelors in education for English. I read a lot of magazines --secular news and opinion.
YOu are right in your definition of how to become a Christian --by belief in Christ. However, there is a place where the Bible says even the demons believe. And the Book of James says quite a bit about faith without works being dead. Or faith without righteousness.
Being "born again" is a spiritual experience, Hump, and simple mental assent to the Gospel could be shallow -and not a born again experience. We have a relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit --or we do not.
No one can judge another --but we are known by our works, whether our faith be dead or alive.
The Holy Spirit is not operative in a person who molests and murders, who is ruled by temper and passion --or He is being ignored. Jesus isn't very REAL to such a person; the fear of the Lord is not in such a person --we need that fear, as it is the beginning of wisdom.
Christian to me means "Christ-follower" --and such a person will not murder or molest. He may get caught up in "back tracking" such that someone will call his equivocation or his moderation of his past words and deeds a lie as you say Warren did.
Jesus doesn't say His followers are sinless but He tells them to be perfect as He is perfect. So our goal is clear.
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
However, the problem for the charlatan, the faker, is that he doesn't feel remorse. He won't truly repent --and thus, Hitler will not be in Heaven. I don't think he ever made a strong claim to be a disciple of Jesus.
I think Jesus is saying by jot and tittle that not one dot or crossed t of the law is being erased by Him. It's still there --but it isn't the measure by which you'll be judged.
About the law He says, "You've heard it said, eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, but I give you a new command --that you love one another and forgive...."
He said He was a fulfillment of the Law. He added heart attitude to the do's and don't's.
He did not support the burden of legalism imposed by the rabbis.
We are justified because He paid the debt for our sin--but we are to believe in Him and "Be ye perfect." i.e. we are to seek to be blameless in our lifestyles --loving, forgiving, unselfish, --and all the moral standards are expressions of unselfish love in relationships --which standards work toward our good and the good of future generations. We are to put on "the whole armour of God" against the wiles of the devil.
Licentiousness, impurity, sexual debauchery, selfishness and illicit self-indulgence and perversion--all have difficult consequences for us and our progeny.
Even if you are right that there are no real Satan and His demons, we understand that there IS temptation to do wrong --there is right and there is wrong. The Bible says Satan is real and tried to tempt Jesus Himself. All I need to KNOW is to "flee temptation."
By the way, I understand Christian evangelism --we believe we have eternal life to offer in the Good News about Jesus that started 20 centuries ago.
What are you offering that does anyone any good? You want us to all be cynical, vulgar, and focused against Christianity? and for what joyful outcome in our lives here or in the hereafter? Why bother? Could it be that you are trying to convince yourself and misery loves company?
I'm sure you'll probably say you want to free people from the yoke of superstition, i.e. faith --but with that you rob them of hope and comfort as well. What kind of mission is that???
Barb:
I was a psychology major, religion minor. Add to that my old age and the fact that I read alot of books on history and religion, and my education and experience far exceeds yours on the subject. see my profile.
That you agree that acceptence of Jebus as lord and savior is the criteria for being a christian negates your assertion that those who don't meet Christs level of perfection are "not true Xtians."
Its as simple as that. Your doctrine allows the most hideous and violent murderers and fiends to be "saved". All they have to do is believe in Jebus as their savior and repent of their sins. Thus, to call ayone "not a true Xtian" without knowing their belief and repentence is to be fallacious. Its dishonest, its avoidance, its in a word: a fuckin-lie.
So, you agree the 600+ laws were never abandoned, OR ameliorated. Only the rabbinical hypocracy, their lack of empathy, and selective enforcement by the ruling authhrities was decried by Jesus, not the laws themselves.
Thus, you'd better give up that pork and lobster, and have your son/husband circumcised, you heathen!!!
Yes, superstition can give comfort. I understand that. It gives comfort the same way an alcoholic or heroine addict escapes reality. Indeed, because a drunk is happier than a sober man doesn't make that condition admirable nor productive.
Superstion detatches people from reality. It takes self reliance, personal responsibility, and ambition off the table for many. They depend on "manna from heaven", or "God will deliver", instead of using their evolved brain and creativity and drive to do for themselevs.
You want to believe little dead suzie is strolling down some golden road hand in hand with Jebus in heaven? If delusion is what dries your tears, feel free to believe it.
Its mindless, its childlike, its an addiction to fable and abdication of reason to myth. Its avoidance of reality. Youre welcome to it.
I however will deal with reality, life, death, societal deficients and acomplishments as purely natural things. Its what a thinking person who has left the dark ages does.
Hump
Barb:
I was a psychology major, religion minor. Add to that my old age and the fact that I read alot of books on history and religion, and my education and experience far exceeds yours on the subject. see my profile.
So, that's an exhaustive list of all the books you've read? I didn't list mine and don't see any point in doing so. I see yours are from your atheistic point of view. I wonder if you are older than I!
I find valuable anything by Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, NT Wright, Ravi Zaccharias, Allen Bloom, Michael Behe, Phil Johnson, John Stott, CS Lewis, JRR Tolkein, Chuck Colson, Milton, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Moses, David, Isaiah, Rick Warren --and so on and on. Maybe you have studied religion and history more than I--but with what result? cynicism and vulgarity, skepticism? I do read Time, Newsweek, Citizen, World, and the National Review, also. And I'm not ashamed to say I enjoy Reader's Digest --and People magazine at the hairdresser's! While your list may in fact be longer, I wouldn't be interested in reading books by atheists promoting atheism and biblical skepticism. Just as you probably won't read books promoting faith in Christ.
That you agree that acceptence of Jebus as lord and savior is the criteria for being a christian negates your assertion that those who don't meet Christs level of perfection are "not true Xtians." Its as simple as that. Your doctrine allows the most hideous and violent murderers and fiends to be "saved". All they have to do is believe in Jebus as their savior and repent of their sins...... so YOU DO think people can be saved regardless of how sinful they have been? Well, you are right --BUT Jesus said if we do not keep His commandments we are not his children but the children of Satan.
So, it's not as simple and clear- cut as you would make it. If we are his disciples, we can't go out and be a Judas and betray our Lord by hate and murder.
Jesus said, "Whoever harms one of these little ones --(or the least of these, my brethern) --were better that a millstone were hung about his neck and he were cast into the sea." He also said He will deny that He knows us if we do not confess Him before men. and He will tell us, "Depart from me --I never knew you" though we say we did wonderful works in His name --We aren't to take pride in any good works --but we ARE to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner, care for the fatherless and the widow --and so on. We do it unto Him; If we refuse to do these things, Christ said we are failing to do it to Him.
so, I don't think those who commit heinous crimes are going to find God's mercy even if they call themselves Christian--unless they are truly, deeply remorseful --which may rarely happen. Usually, cruel people whose passions and hatred rule them, will not come to that place of remorse needed for repentance that leads to salvation. But it IS possible. And we know that we are all sinful and that all sinners CAN be saved. No one is without hope of salvation if He will truly repent and be born again-- changed through faith and God's grace by the Spirit of the Lord.
So, you agree the 600+ laws were never abandoned, OR ameliorated. Only the rabbinical hypocracy, their lack of empathy, and selective enforcement by the ruling authhrities was decried by Jesus, not the laws themselves.
Thus, you'd better give up that pork and lobster, and have your son/husband circumcised, you heathen!!! Most american men are circumcised, I believe, for reasons of hygiene. The men I know about are circumcised --as far as I know --and I can't say I've looked at many!!! So don't call ME a heathen! The laws about food were made null and void in Peter's vision. The Jews regarded Gentiles as "unclean." There was a point in nullifying the food laws --God could make clean the unclean --and so He did when He extended salvation to Gentiles, healed lepers --and lifted dietary restrictions. Jesus often said "it's not what you put into your mouth that defiles you, but what comes out of the heart --what proceeds from the mouth."
Yes, superstition can give comfort. I understand that. It gives comfort the same way an alcoholic or heroine addict escapes reality. Indeed, because a drunk is happier than a sober man doesn't make that condition admirable nor productive.
Superstion detatches people from reality. It takes self reliance, personal responsibility, and ambition off the table for many. They depend on "manna from heaven", or "God will deliver", instead of using their evolved brain and creativity and drive to do for themselevs.The history of Christianity is one of great creativity, ingenuity, genius at work, self-reliance, hard work, the protestant work ethic, humanitarian works, hospitals, charities, universities, schools in 3rd world countries. You really can't do an honest overview of christians and Christianity and draw the conclusions you do above. The Wright bro's were Christians --at least raised in a Christian household that encouraged their scientific labors.
I'd rather live in the U.S.A. than anywhere else --we are unique and productive and blessed as a nation because we are the most biblical of nations --even though we have many sins in our history also. And may be going down-hill fast with our current trend toward sin and unbelief.
Protestantism had a lot to do with shaping the good aspects of America --the church life in every small town, e.g. The Bible study and preaching. Ministries to the poor. People striving to follow Christ by being unselfish, generous, helpful, good neighbors, forgiving, kind, and friendly. Yes, sin still abounds --but the Bible and evangelical protestant Christianity were stronger in our nation than any other as an influence on our culture --as a motivation for us to preach Christ's ways here and abroad. The Golden Rule was instrumental in abolition, charity, cultural reform, mission work, starting in England and shaping America.
You want to believe little dead suzie is strolling down some golden road hand in hand with Jebus in heaven? If delusion is what dries your tears, feel free to believe it.Its mindless, its childlike, its an addiction to fable and abdication of reason to myth. Its avoidance of reality. Youre welcome to it.
I however will deal with reality, life, death, societal deficients and acomplishments as purely natural things. Its what a thinking person who has left the dark ages does. Or, as Jesus said, it's what a person does who will not come to the light, but prefers the darkness because his deeds are evil. No, I don't know your deeds --though I've heard rumor that you share traits with some other atheists I've met on line when it comes to making up hateful, vile lies about other bloggers.
I'm not going to last long here, I bet, before you either start deleting or get vile. Surprise me!!!
Yes, I hope all the little Suzies who were murdered or died of tragic accidents and diseases are walking with Jesus --as He said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven." Yes, this is comforting to the bereaved, to have hope in Heaven because the EArly Church SAW the risen Christ and were thereafter unafraid to proclaim the Gospel as truth --in places where skeptics abound. They were willing to die because they had seen HIM.
He is risen! He is risen indeed! That's the Easter declaration and response proclaimed throughout 20 centuries.
Hump's remarks are in italics on my previous post -- and the paragraph breaks didn't work for me. Mine are in regular text run together and sharing paragraphs with hump's remarks in italics.
barb,
I read the first paragraph of your comment then just scanned the rest, because I realized you're a typical theist idiot who lacks reading skills, and honesty.
No Barb. If you read what the profile section says you'd note it says : "FAVORITE Books" not "all books". Just like "Lawrence of Arabia" isn't the ONLY movie I ever saw...its a "favorite movie".
Now, seeing as how your comprehension and reading skills are so limited, your replies so shallow/vapid; and your tenedency to re-write christian doctrine because it presents difficulties for you (i.e." I dont think people who commit heinous crimes will find god's mercy.." , etc.) I'm going to ask you to post elsewhere.
I have no patience for inventive christianity, pseudo-christianity, or hybrid-christianity that flies in the face of doctrine. It derails discourse and is a waste of time.
Thank you,
Hump
so much for disputing the "..render unto ceasar.." et al.
Discrediting revisionist xtian doctrine is easy when the self appointed christian revisionist is exposed by someone versed in christian doctfrine.
I guess she doesnt have that problem in christian webs sites... they typically don't read/comprehend scripture either.
Ah well.
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